Theories about god

[sandy82]

I know the feeling, Dave, but don't despair. Goldragon, I see the source of your irritation and I remind you of your closing comment yesterday. Lack of civility is a descending staircase. Dave ended with an impersonal comment about leaving before he said something offensive. I understand why you didn't like that. But then you introduced second-person language and issued two orders. I don't think that the two of you have a "history" of which a new participant would be unaware. Therefore, I doubt that there are pre-existing tensions on either side or both sides. Let's not descend the staircase any farther. Let me try a possible middle-of-the-road approach--and perhaps get hit from all directions.

It seems to me that all positions on this issue of God/no god start with an unprovable premise. Stated slightly differently, the arguments begin at the end. When you think about it, that's the most likely way for the argument to be framed because there is no empirical data on either side.

I use this example. Is there a bat in the vacationing neighbor's house? I don't know. But since I don't whether one is there, I also don't know whether one is not there. I suppose I could go look (I have the key), but the game has an additional rule. I am forbidden to go anywhere near the house. Therefore, I don't even have such evidence as an open window or an absence of insects on window sills. I can't get close enough to hear the flapping of wings after nightfall.

I don't mind the unprovable premise-turned-conclusion. I do get irritated at some of the half-baked "reasons" given in support of one position or the other. I had a camp counselor once, a pre-med student, who said that the structure of the human hand was so complex and so wondrous that there had to be a God. Something about that statement wasn't satisfying when I was 11 or 12, but I didn't know what it was. I do now. It's two things basically: the mixing of the subjective and objective, and the intensity of belief being directly linked to the limitations of the observer. Because the pre-med student thinks the human hand is so wondrous (subjective), there must be a God (objective). That process, with different ingredients, can lead to Hitlerism and Stalinism...or almost-anything-ism. And if the pre-med student had known considerably more about the hand, he might have been less impressed with its wonders. Being impressed through one's own lack of knowledge extends from looking at hands to the first sight of burning gunpowder to thunder and lightning.

On the other side, some of the secondary arguments are surprisingly similar. Because I can't use my five senses to experience the presence of God, then there isn't one. That's the logical equivalent of saying: I admit that all my five senses are limited (sight between infrared and ultraviolet; hearing between 20 and 20,000 KHz, olfactory sense that's pitiful compared to a dog's, etc.), but because I can't experience something that may exist far outside those limits, then that something is not there.

Many of the pro and con arguments are extensions/extrapolations of threshold positions stated more precisely, I'm sure, than I have expressed them.

What holds true for God/no god applies to the Bible. Speaking personally, I have never found the Bible very interesting. And I quickly add that, if there is a God, he may not find me very interesting. (That statement alone should be enough to make some site users into instant true believers. :wink: ) The arguments about whether the Bible or other holy books are the work of God are fine, but they don't lead anywhere. The Bible is interesting as a record of the incremental civilizing of one gradually expanding area of humanity. The beginnings are very simple, concrete and straightforward. The concepts are easy to understand, even if technicaly inaccurate. Whether or not the author was God or the scribe/priest of the people, the story of creation is broken into "days" like a book is broken into chapters or paragraphs. A new idea for each day. Man is shown/realizes that killing one's own son is not necessary. Then a clear-cut series of rules. Justice, fire-and-brimstone harangues, then mercy. Parables that deal with abstract ideas but use 100 percent concrete imagery. The first real taste of abstract philosophy comes with a Greek-educated Roman citizen of Jewish background, years after the death of the historical Jesus. That's quite a record of two-layer history. The upper layer is the viewpoint of the writer; the second layer comprises the happenings and viewpoints of the characters/subjects/actors in the underlying story.

Despite the efforts of some politicians to make points by discarding knowledge, a big disagreement over irreconcilable viewpoints isn't worth it--except to the politicians.

There's one thing we can all agree on. If there's a God or if there's not a god, there's nothing we can do about it. None of us makes much difference in the larger scheme of things anyway. How many of us will be remembered a century from now--any of us?--as this same debate continues, seemingly forever and ever.

[Ceot]

Not to offend any one.

But if I die.
you can all visit my grave stone with the satanic symble and the epitath.

{Well at least I knew were I was going.}

And you can knock three times on the stone.
If I dont knock back i,m either held for the moment somewere.
Or their is no after life.
See it as you want.....But if I do knock back.........


Seriosly go for it.
I wont tell.

[sandy82]

[goldragon_70]

I'm sorry if my last reply was a little low, just get tired of the old play. The topic seems to be straying now.

[InsaneCPRClown]

i heard that everytime science has tried to prove gods creations wrong... they had failed... which there puts some belief of god into me... but then again i do have my quarrels wit god =/ and i aint ever gunna go to heaven (if anyone believes in it) but ima be goin straight to hell... but yea i heard somewhere that, that was true that science cant prove god wrong O_O

[sandy82]

Goldragon, no need to apologize, but the offer is rare and welcome.

The topic did stray. I'm partly to blame. I hope it will stay on track now.

[Mr_Oblivious]

Mr. Oblivious wonders if some people are more angry with God than they are disbelieving.

[sandy82]

[goldragon_70]

[JKnaugh13]

There is only one God, the God of Abraham. All those who seek to worship other false gods will suffer for eternity in Hell. Every man is flawed, every man sins. There is still time to repent. I will pray for you all to embrace God's love. I feel not anger towards those who do not believe in God, only sadness and pity.

[Mallic]

[Mr_Oblivious]

[goldragon_70]

[Mallic]

[aeroue]

Theories about God...

That is his theory let him have it.
If you don't like it don't read it.

Anyways.

The God of classical theism does not exist.
But something probably does.

That is my theory.

[Mallic]

[tantetruus]

ive never believed in a deity nor a hereafter, thinking it was just all made up. until i got this expirience, and my believe changed totally. from that moment on i am a high believer in a hereafter.

A very good friend of mine (lets just call her V) is doing all kinds of paranormal activities, and she's learning me a few "tricks" too. she taught me that every person has a special paranormal talent. she told me hers was being a medium. able to communicate with specters, ghosts and such.

once, she tried to summon a ghost to communicate with it. she wrote her questions on a sheet of paper, and performed her ritual. (rituals are to be kept secret in each coven). i dont know how it worked, but it did. far too good. the ghost took control of V, and the ghost, (cant remember her name, but it was a young girls ghost, like a girl of eleven or such) forced her to write all the answers on the paper. but then she started speaking, to me. with the voice of a eleven year old girl.

the ghost told me she died in an violent way and more things like telling her parents she was in a better place now, so they shouldnt worry. she missed them. then the ghost left, or V won the struggle, but anyway, V was V again.

since that day, since that experience, i do believe in a hereafter in some kind. a deity, still is just made up for me.

i know it sounds a little unbelieveable, but this is what i believe. i saw what i saw, right? and this experience is more convincing than a priest who states there is some guy allmighty, telling me to do stuff like going to the church, and be good and so on. i just try to be good, and honest and all the such, but i dont believe in a god. thats just it.

P.S. i hope my english is good enough to read my post, my grammar isnt that good.

[gurlbidesign]

Man has never been able to create a god who was much better then man himself. Many have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. IMHO if you get your god from a book and not from your life, you are probably at least a little wrong. If your beliefs make you feel better thats great, if they make you feel better then others you probably need to work on that.

[Ceot]

I think mankind is its own god.
Let thy hearts judge our own sins.

That way theirs still hope for me
to get into some form of heaven.

[ubermullet]

[gurlbidesign]

How about a short shot at the old testament? Most people don't get as offended with that.

Would this be the god who sent 2 bears to rend 42 little children into little bits just for sassing someone he liked?

[ubermullet]

Well... the thing is with the old testiment, is that even Jesus said that it is out of date.

Its a nice history lesson as to where we came from, but with was just written to teach us, not written for us.

And just because God gets pissed off once in a while doesn't mean He doesn't exist :P

[gurlbidesign]

ok...how about St. Peter describing Lot as a just and rightous man. St. Pete ought to know, he was given the keys to heaven. Yet Lot offered his two virgin daughters up for a gang bang to try to get the crowd to not bother his two guests. Guests who by his actions he had to be pretty sure that they could take care of themselves. Like I said, in both instances man couldn't come up with a god with better manners and morals then themselves. A god who can kill little children just for being kids, and condones rape isn't my idea of a supreme being, but more like a candidate for his own bears.

[ubermullet]

If God wasn't like us, then how could He be our Father?

Reading the bible, I think God is more "human" (and I use the term loosly) then what we concider a Supreme Being to be. I mean, God loves, meaing He has feelings. Probably the more violent ones too! And he has done things that he regrets, like Noah's Flood. The rainbow is a big "I'm Sorry" card from God!

Which means, making Adam in his own image, probably ment more then just his physical appearence. :)

[Ceot]

Did it ever acure to any one that its just that.
A lesson taught in a book and nothing more.
I,m the cryptic one rite?

Ok did it ever acure to any one that
the popper and king, beeing backwards was intended?

Saying that a man who is a king in heart survives inside.
And he dies with no regrets.
Neednt he actually be rich and a dictated king.

Just a man with a golden heart.

And a man with week nature often finds his own hell.
Hense the popper.
He need not be poor at all.


P.S

I think Jesus was born from a chamera.
Dont think I spelled that rite.
But maybe marry was her own husband?...

Oh really hope that didnt get any one upset.
I ment it in a purely sceintific way.

Chamera's have their fraternal twins genetics inside.
So X and Y equal baby...?

Althow I know how it must sound.

[gurlbidesign]

[Mallic]

[ubermullet]

[gurlbidesign]

Its' called catharsis I think.....if you want to attribute it to a devine spirit then go ahead. Lots of us do it without any outside help at all. Is the sky really blue or is it just an optical illusion?

[missypuss]

Actually I think you will find a woman hits her sexual peek when shes 38 years old..
Now where are all those nubile 18 year old boys..... :twisted:

[gurlbidesign]

What peak? There was a peak? I don't remember any peak.

[Mallic]

[Mallic]

[Primus]

God is great, god is good, let us thank him for this food.

If God is really so great then why did I have to work my ass for the food in the first place?


Seriously though long ago I learned there really isn't a god. The power is in us all it just takes great control to use. Long ago man once existed in a hive mind and through that ancient great things like Stone Henge and Atlantis were built. The psychic backlash of Atlantis' destruction is what caused the mental barriers to arise and block the contact as well as limit the power that everyone can draw on.


Till the day when all are one
Primus the alpha and Omega

[Mallic]

You see, I do not say to you now: how can you think that, you are going to rot in hell if you do not renounce your way SINNER!!

[Primus]

The good book mentions one man's return from heaven to life, do you think not that the path though longer and more uphill is not also possible to make? In truth good sir we are all currently living in hell anyways so would then not eternal damnation be the same as eternal life?


Always remember when Eternal Life is on the barganing platter make sure Eternal Youth is as well. It is wonderful to live to be one thousand years old but to feel one thousand as well...

[Mallic]

[ubermullet]

[Mallic]

[Primus]

just like the spoon there is no New Testiment... Old school on you fools! I bring my wrath down upon all those who dare to cross me.

Seriously though Humanity is a contradiction in and of itself. God created man in his image and in years later man returned the favor. They're great stories to glean lessons from but that shit is wack you and anyone who takes it on face value... I have this bridge for sale in Brooklyn

[JKnaugh13]

[Primus]

I've read the book cover to cover. Does it make me an expert on the subject? hell no. but it does at least mean that I have a basic understanding versus some of the other people who bash god.

In my not to humble opinion I've got to say that the difference in how the Old testiment comares to the new shows that society drifted to far and the new was an attempt to bring back the peace. The only problem that we haven't really gone back to the peace idea.

[gurlbidesign]

Hey, if you need a god or religion in your life then by all means go for it. My comments on the subject were my own views and if in your opinion I am going to eternal damnation for them why should you be offended? Those that take the bible as the literal word of god confuse me. As the book was written hundreds of years after the claimed events by several different men and since then it has been revamped and poorly translated repeatedly. I know a man who claims to be saved and has a direct line to heaven when the trumpets blow, yet his general behavior would not get him through my front door. Which of us is right? Ya got me. All I know is that I meet my own standards of conduct in this life and if that doesn't cut it in the afterlife then I probably would have been very uncomfortable there anyway.

[ubermullet]

[Primus]

who wants a ticket to heaven? to quote someone else "I'd rather die with the sinners then cry with the saints the sinners have much more fun"

I like a number of religions don't doubt about there being a Jesus on the earth but he is no son of some supposed 'god'. Also anyone else notice that even ammong montheistic religions christianity is one of the only to call god god versus actually having a name vs Allah, Shiva, Buddah (sp?), Chrishna (I know I spelled that one wrong)

the soul is the start and end of the power of creation, but we have lost how to tap it to any strength.

[Mallic]

So all you have to do is believe in the (power of Santa, or get nothing!) Bible and you will go to heaven and a wonderful afterlife. So, you have to suck up to god to get into heaven? A man of boundless integrity arn't you? A few of the most wonderful people I have met are aseists, but if god didn't let them into heaven, I would do everything in my power to smite him (as stupid as that sounds, but you get the idea)

Jesus was a good guy preaching about being nice to people and not be a dickhead. His mistake, and the mistake of most who came after/before him, was that he put a religion behind his teachings, and (like america) after that it didn't pick up a good reputation from everyone who doesn't belong to it.

[gurlbidesign]

Ubermullet.......so you are saying that god was a monkey???? As we were created in his image. For a supreme being to need a total rewrite of his views strikes me as a little suspect. "This is how I want you to behave, these are my views." "No wait, I have changed my mind.....hear the words of your god now." Do you honestly believe that people lived for hundreds of years back in the "old days"? Do you believe that the world is only a few thousand years old? Do you believe that Noah was able to get two of every creature on this planet into a boat the size of the dimensions given for the ark? Do you believe there was ever a virgin birth? Why do we know beyond any doubt of people and events that happened long before christ was supposedly born yet a man who walked on water and raised the dead cannot be confirmed as having actually walked the earth and done what is claimed?

[Primus]

I dunno about the walk on water stuff, but that raising people from the dead part... you never play the classic halloween game of Wake the Dead?

[ubermullet]

[Mallic]

Bullshit, thats all I have to say. If you leave things up to faith, the world falls apart. I have faith we will find WMDs. I have faith that we are the right religion. Peace is based on logic