Aren't These Impossible?

[nuit09]

Yes.Yes. Dunno. but it is certainly impossible for you if you negate the possibility a priori before "trying" to do it. Therefore you are wasting your time here. :lol:

[nuit09]

the base line somatic template of all animals is female. the genetic instructions on the Y chromosome alter the tissue development of males into the proper sexual equipment for a male. yet without the Y chromosome guidance that tissue would form a vagina cervix, ovaries and uterus. So a male has the DNA instruction set for being a female inside every cell. Genes code for proteins which coordinate various operational functions in the body. You can cause an organism to exhibit a new trait either by altering the genetic code or by introducing the peptides the gene codes for. genes may be turned off or on. the female genes can be turned off and on. the switching action is controlled by other genes and RNA. so a mechanism exists to replicate the process of generating female or male organs. all one need do is replicate the gene sequence and turn them on in the proper order. or introduce the proper peptides to the proper places at the proper time.

Hypnotism has been shown to affect estrogen and testosterone levels.
heck, even something as simple as marital status, wive's pregnancy or athletic prestige afects testosterone profoundly. these are substances coded for and otherwise controlled genetically. therefore hypnosis can replicate the effects of genetic switching. whether this can be extended to controlling the chemical direction of somatic stem cells needed to generate new sexual organ tissue is something i am not qualified to lecture on. however it is my opinion that it is within the realm of possibility on a sound biological theoretical footing.

in addition to the generation of new sexual organs the old sexual organs would have to be reabsorbed. a process that does occur in other circumstances throughout the body but would need to be triggered and controlled somehow. again it is a matter of peptides and hormones but it would add to the complexity of the overall project significantly.

You asked if this was possible. based upon the above i say yes it is possible.

Whether it is realistically achievable or not in real conditions: it is technically possible if not exactly probable.

[Blink]

[CuriousG]

Nuit, saying that you ought to have faith just because a lack will make it impossible in the first place is pretty silly, as having faith in things that don't work will waste your time. If Peter Pan came to my 4th story window and told me that all I needed to do to fly was "believe," I'd not trust him for a moment.

Frankly, if hypnosis could do things as fantastic as some of the files on this site, it'd attract a lot more attention. In reality though, it's little more than a turbo-placebo effect.

Hypnosis is by far most effective at affecting things that are all in the mind. You might manage other results through it, but the trouble of growing breasts or some comparable thing with hypnosis is surely greater than getting hormones, for the average person.

[nuit09]

[goldragon_70]

[nuit09]

[Lissar]

As a biology student, I'm going to go ahead and say that it's really not possible to switch genders with hypnosis. In order to get rid of your current reproductive organs, your body would have to start attacking itself, effectively leaving you with an autoimmune disease. Your immune system destroys things based on whether said thing is self or non-self. If you start destroying self, it's not going to be pretty.

Do I think you can alter hormone production with hypnosis? Eh, don't know, but unlikely I think. Before anyone shouts about the subconscious, I'd like to point out that no form of consciousness really makes your body systems work. The parts of your brain that control all of these processes are not given instructions from any sort of conscious from what I can tell. Either way, if you want a hormone change, you're better off buying hormones than relying on hypnosis.

[nuit09]

[nuit09]

Placebo is not necessarily a derogatory term. the placebo effect can have astonishing results. it is only some people who use the term to dismiss things they cannot dispute but still wish to debunk. my point was and perhaps i could have been clearer; placebo, magic, a miracle, a humongously improbable event outside of gaussian probability mean distribution; whatever it is called does not negate it's import or effectiveness. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

[Jack]

*laughs* Who is the master that makes the grass green?

[Lissar]

I consider myself well-educated in biology seeing as I am completing my eighth semester of biology (second semester of university introductory biology currently), and I am a biology major. And shedding the uterine lining is much different from shedding a penis and creating a vagina, especially since the internal structure of the male reproductive anatomy is incredibly complicated. Meanwhile, shedding the uterine lining is a response to ovulation, and the lining is meant to be shed. The cells are layered onto the inside of the uterus superficially, and the uterine lining consists mainly of mucous, along with some blood and other cells. If you're comparing the expulsion of mucous, or any other material that a body is designed to dispose of, with an autoimmune disease and the immune reaction, then you're completely ignoring the biology behind either one.

Also, if hypnosis were as incredibly successful in changing hormone levels as it is advertised to do, women with poly-cystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) would be using it much, MUCH more than they are currently, and currently, it seems as if virtually no one is.

The entire point of my arguments is that while you might argue that these things are possible, I argue that you're better off finding some other solution to your problems. According to quantum physics, if you lean against a wall and bump your shoulder into it over and over again, eventually you will move through the wall and end up on the other side. While hypnosis might have a slightly higher success rate, the fact remains that if you need to go outside, use the door.

[nuit09]

I don't want to prolong the argument. I merely pointed out that your contention about immune response being the sum total of tissue removal was false. i could provide other examples such as bone tissue.

But i digress. hypnosis has been shown to initiate tissue growth in peer reviewed journals. this is indisputable. That the genetic instructions to both add and remove tissue is encoded ito our genes is also indisputable. E.G; fetus evolving through a gilled amphibian stage but later losing the gills. note this process has little if anything to do with immune system functions.

Finally. i agree that within our current SOTA it is far more efficient to use other means rather than hypnosis for such things. I would however postulate that the right technique might yeild these seemingly fantastic or even impossible results.

as an analogy early humans exposed to a modern capenters tool box could not be expected to build a mansion. but a trained craftsman can. likewise, if in almost total ignorance of proper application of tools such as hypnosis, biofeedback, visualization, will and so on we cannot do something that while complicated is within the realm of possibility it does not mean that some trained prodigy cannot make use of those tools to perform the miraculous.


The tools build nothing by themselves. the skill of the artisan with the proper tools does.

I did not argue that it was simple. i did not argue that it was easy. i merely said it was within, and only just within, the realm of the possible.

And finally you and I agree. the average person is better off finding another means to do these things. That is just common sense. my purpose though is to ensure that those who want to Know and Do are not kept in ignorance of the possibilities by the skepticism and negativism of the mundane herd. No one ever did anything original or ingenious by following the herd. I will ensure that of all the voices they hear not all say no and forget about it. Conformnity is for cattle.

[Jack]

People act as if it were allopathic vs homeopathic medicine. I believe in a world where it is not take one and leave the other, but rather use both to the best of their abilities.

[nuit09]

indeed. if my ass were on fire i would not do an induction to put it out. but iwould still do inductions for other things. :lol:

[nuit09]

[Lissar]

Once again, the shedding of the uterine lining is, in my opinion based on my knowledge of it, very different from the destruction of tissues to remove a penis. Have you ever shed your uterine lining?

If you're posting your credentials in response to me posting my background in biology, I would like to point out that I added my background in biology to show that I'm not just some random person who read a few articles and took a couple classes in high school. I plan on doing research in cancer and immunology. I'm actually genuinely interested in these things, and I have to take eight biology credits (one credit per semester) as well as two chemistry credits in order to fulfill the biology major requirements.

We aren't in agreement, so please don't go ahead and say we are. I stand by my reasoning that the body would have to mount an incredible autoimmune response to destroy a body part when the loss of that part is not natural in the course of a person's life, and the autoimmune response would have painful consequences since it would not distinguish between cells in one part of the body and cells in another. And I do have knowledge of autoimmune diseases, having researched them considerable in the past two years.

I'm not saying that we should abandon any sort of alternative remedies. What I am saying is that I don't think that some of the things that people on this site want, such as the loss of a male reproductive system and the addition of a female one, are quite ridiculous from a biological standpoint. I do not believe that these things are the same as menstruation by any means, and if you mention the shedding of the uterine lining one more time, I think I'll implode, metaphorically speaking.

[nuit09]

I think though that you have a mistaken idea about the autoimmune response being necessary for tissue reabsorbtion. Reabsorbtion is a better term than destruction forthe process as i envision it.) the parts of the penis, scrotum, and testicles as you know are also the parts of a female reproductive system. the tissue is just formed differently due to the influence of chemical messengers. so destruction is not necessary. just reabsorption such as occurs in the examples i cited ( such as the atrophy of penile tissue in heavy doses of female hormones in pre-op transexuals, which alone is very suggestive of the veracity of my premise ) and probably in many others i failed to mention. And such reabsorbtion is clearly a part of the genetic instruction set. and genes can be activated or thier products artificially introduced to the same effect. Which is of importance to my premise because the X chromosome instruction genes must subsequently either be activated or thier products introduced synthetically to construct a vagina, etc. further, there is the X factor; any process not understood by science involved in the human mind.

I argue that it is possible because the basic biological processes required are all present, and beyond that there is the great unknown of human extrordinary abilities. For my case it is not necessary for it to be common, or even to be proven to have happened in even one example but only possible. I have made a strong case that it is possible.

[CuriousG]

[nuit09]

[nuit09]

Disinfect a wound? biologically possible. reabsorb a leg? somewhat biologically possible. Grow a titanium hip? not biologically possible with our genetic code. occurs en demonstradato in some organisms and plants. for a human to do so would require either internally manufacturing new DNA or a supreme act of Magick and a pile of bioavailable titanium. :wink:

[Reknaw133]

I've never tried any of these so I can't give sure answers but I am sure it's psyically not possible to switch gender via hipno-soundwaves male and female differ in the genital area also they contain different organs (worm, etc) it's psyically not possible to switch even with surgury.

People who belive this are freaks, please someone send me the file (I am willing to bet my 'manhood' on it - I really am)

[nuit09]

[Jack]

nuit: Avoid personal attacks like this to be more credible.

reknaw: Birchwood is correct. Also, remember that just because something is too complicated at this moment in time doesn't mean that we'll never be able to achieve it. At one point doing any work on the heart that didn't result in death was considered impossible. Now we transplant them. Jolt them out of arrhythmia. Reanimate the deceased(albeit we only have a few minutes in which to do this). Currently we are working on the cloning and surgical installation of whole organs. Even one step further: growing new organs in humans!

birchwood: Remember also that it used to be thought that if a human being exceeded 35mphs they would suffocate. Vaccinations were thought to be vile works of the devil, and against the hippocratic oath. Man would never leave the ground, let alone break the sound barrier or leave the atmosphere. Every innovation has it's detractors, and in a way they are correct: at that time the technology is too new to be as effective as whatever is currently in place. However, given a little time and energy, anything is possible.

CuriousG: Way to hyperbolize. Your body grew from a single cell. When you get a cut, you body heals itself. What's weird is that it knows when to stop.. You don't end up with a twin. The mechanism(s) for regeneration are in every cell of your body. What you're talking about are the limits of our current conscious knowledge and ability. Did you know that Egyptians had "healing temples"? You go in, lay down for a period of time(anywhere from 30 minutes to a few days), the priest(s) recite a spell, and you walk out cured of your ailments. They did this for colds, VDs, cuts, and broken bones(mind you: they set the bone first). We live in(as far as anyone can tell) an infinite universe in which there is room for everything. It is no more unlikely to change the genitalia of a human being than it is for a woman to lift a car off of her child. All the required parts are there already. One need only apply a sufficiently developed technology.

Lissar: You are correct about the uterine lining. The uterus is specifically designed to perform this function. Basically, nuit is correct though. Who says you have to destroy tissue in order to change gender? You're looking at genitalia as a single finite unit, and not as a collection of smaller units which can be reorganized to perform a similar function. No destruction, no autoimmune response. Also, every second of your life your unconscious is constantly controlling and altering your heart rate, the rate at which you breathe, the levels of your hormones, your perspiration, and a million other little things like processing the billions of bits of information it receives every second from your eyes, ears, nose, skin, and tongue into a form which your conscious mind will recognize and be able to utilize. No one knows the potential of human beings.

I am open to PMs, as well as responses in the forums.

[Lissar]

[nuit09]

differentiation such as found in adult stem cells which are found in every tissue in the body is not the question though it could help. for example there are attempts to make stem cells become a third set of teeth in adults that have lost theirs and there are anecdotal reports of people actually doing this by will alone that have been noted here. There are three families of cells in the body that get thier start all the way back when the body was a hollow sphere of nearly undiferentiated cells. second generation stem cells are from these cell families and are still present in mature bodies. Third generation stem cells are further differentiated and further limited in potential to form other tissues. however even these later generation stem cells can form limited other types of tissues as has been proven in the lab. For example stem cells from the testes have been coaxed into becoming eggs in the lab. I can find the peer reviewed research on that if you like a cite on it.

Be that as it may since the male sexual anatomy is really made of the same types of cells as the female sexual organs the type of differentiation you seem to imply is not needed for the type of anatomical transformation we have been talking about. The glans cells are the same as clitoral cells. The scrotal cells are the same as the cells in a woman's labia. the material in the copus cavernosa is also in certain parts of the femle anatomy, the uretheral tissue is also the cells in the vagina and cervix and uterus. the cells in the testicles are largely the same as the cells in the ovaries. They are the same cells just in different locations and numbers. No stem cell like changeability is needed with perhaps an exception in the folicular cells in the ovaries. that one i am uncertain of. but if you acknoledge the co-identity of these cells then your argument of the necessity of what amounts to cellular mutation is plainly incorrect.


As to hormone control by psychological mechanisms this is well documented as i listed elsewhere in this thread and therre is no need to list them again.

The idea that because a study says this is so doctors would elect to use it as therapy is not well thought out. why would they rely on the patient when they cannot even rely on the patient to make the effort to finish a course of antibiotics? What doctor in his right mind would rely on the patient practicing intense meditations for hours a day every day for months at a time rather than give him a pill or a shot? Number one; so few people would be steadfast enough to cure themselves this way that statistically the treatment would be a dismall failure even if it were ironclad that the therapy would otherwise work. I hope they have stellar malpractice insurance...


Number 2: Also you bring this up elsewhere; medicine is a business and there is not profit in this. if a doctor could choose between telling you to eat grass or this expensive little pill ( given both do the same thing) he's going to perscribe the expensive little pill. not considering for the moment the monumental difficulty of following a meditative type cure to a successful conclusion.

Again; you cannot confuse a processes dismal efficiency with proving the null hypothesis. dismal efficiency implies that work is done just done at an unacceptable rate. it does not imply that the process does not work.

[CuriousG]

Nuit, anything can happen. Statistically, there's a chance that within the next moment I will spontaneously sprout a second head (due to quantum mechanics), and you could argue that simply waiting is merely an example of a "dismally ineffecient" way to get a second head.

You cannot, with any real success, direct yourself to grow gills (or a vagina) through hypnosis. Even if the elements for doing so exist within the body, it is beyond the ability of your conscious mind to direct.

To give another example, you can't crunch large numbers quickly in your head the way a computer can. Even though your brain has more processing power than any digital CPU on the market, it still can't match even a pocket calculator. No matter how much time and effort you spend trying to make it otherwise, those limits will still exist. Consciously fiddling with DNA has the same sort of difficulty attached to it.

Given this, the files that say you can grow a vagina are complete bunk.

[nuit09]

[goldragon_70]

[Lissar]

Oy, people. Here we go.

You cannot voluntarily control the amount of hormones you produce. You really can't, especially the amount of sex hormones. I am very serious when I say that women with PCOS would be using hypnosis a lot more if it could lower testosterone that significantly.

Yes, the body produces cortisol when you get stressed out. And if you were hypnotised into believing you were stressed out, you would respond accordingly. You would also produce more adrenaline if you were hypnotised into believing that you were being pursued by a bear (five points for knowing that literary reference). But you cannot tell your body to produce more cortisol or produce more adrenaline.

Does anyone know how EMG's file creates an erection? I'm curious as to his wording to see if it conforms to how the sympathetic nervous system works.

[Jack]

Lissar, you keep making all of these assertions without much(or any in some cases) evidence.

"You cannot voluntarily control the amount of hormones you produce" is an assertion. You keep trying to use the same tool(hypnosis) on us, that we use to change others. And, for the most part, I agree with you. I would only add two words to what you said: normally, and consciously. Normally, the vast majority of people cannot consciously(with volition) control the amount of hormones that their body produces.

What tells your body to produce those hormones? Or do you believe that they're just automatically produced without any controls? They just keep producing, and producing, and producing. If this were the case, we would all be dead! As a biology student you should know that the heart keeps beating because of impulses sent from the brain through the nervous system to the heart. Your brain monitors and controls all of your systems. It's in a constant feedback loop with your entire body. Your conscious mind is a function of your brain. Unless you believe in a soul.. In which case, your soul and your body are in another loop.

Under normal circumstances... you know what... nevermind. Ignore everything I and all of the other people here have said, and just go about your business. Just don't try to install unneccessary limits in other people. If you want to live your life with your head up the educational systems ass where you can't see anything: Go for it. It's your life, do with it what you will.

[CuriousG]

Well, Nuit, I can understand (though I don't necessarily agree with) your assertion that hypnosis can do some of these more incredible things. However, my core point is solely this:

The extremely outlandish-sounding files, which is anything much more extreme than growing breasts, simply aren't worth listening to.

There are many processes in your body that you can go through life without ever consciously controlling. A couple simple examples are wiggling your ears and whistling. Even these simple things are impossible for many people. Controlling your hormones by hypnosis is a HUGE step beyond that (perhaps to the point of impossibility for the vast majority of people), and you certainly can't just repeat to yourself the mantra: I want more estrogen, just as you can't say to yourself: I want to whistle, and expect results. IF there is a way to do the most outlandish things described in these files, it certainly doesn't seem to be a way that EMG knows.

[nuit09]

That is possibly true. but that has never been my argument. my argument along your last line of thought is that you should never tell people who come here searching for a way to do the "outlandish" that they cannot do it. "period. end of discussion." that's just plain wrong and somewhat pompous and overbearing. It's certainly counterproductive to thier quest.

[VeryGnawty]

[CuriousG]

[nuit09]

No i see it as pushing conformnity based not on the factual bounds of reality but on statistical norms; crushing ambitions, and destroying any chance at pushing the bounds the possible for someone else because your drive has already been destroyed. It is a sad petty evil thing to perpetrate on someone trying to do something extraordinary If they fail let them do so on thier own limitations and merits and not your own beliefs and limitations.

[goldragon_70]

[Lissar]

[Hyp-know-fetish]

I have experienced a couple of minor physical changes through hypnosis.

[Jack]

Lissar: Please refer to the post directly above this one.

[CuriousG]

Well, at least it's a good thing that WMM doesn't charge for MOST of the files.

[CuriousG]

[Lissar]

I think it's silly that people are asking me to "open my mind." It seems ridiculous that people are telling me to read some articles and agree with them when they refuse to learn about the capacities of the human body to see where I'm coming from.

[Chrisjl]

I agree with completely with Lissar concerning using hypnosis to induce a sex change. It simply isn't possible as there is no mechanism available to the body to "shed" sexual organs and then grow new ones. Also while it is true that the body is female as a baseline and all we men do indeed have the requisite information to be female within us it doesn't make a blind bit of difference once the body has developed.
Let me use an analogy to make it clear. Think of DNA as the blueprints for a house, the house is the body. When the house is being built (the body is developing) then the blueprints are followed. However once you have built the house it doesn't matter if you change the blueprints because the house has already been built! This is a slightly simplistic view as the "blueprints" are constantly consulted to maintain the "house" but the house never gets rebuilt. Think about it, if hypnosis had the ability to generate completely new organs and tissue then it would be used to treat amputees.
Oh and for the record the body can (selectively) destroy itself quite safely, the process is called apoptosis and is essential for a number of things including the development of the fingers I'm using to type this.

Incidentally I hold a degree in genetics and a higher degree in biomedical sciences so you can take my words as truth.

As for the placebo issue, even if hyponsis is 'only' a placebo, so what? Placebo effects can have amazing and dramatic effects without the need for any external input (e.g. drugs). Surely this is a better approach than utilising external methods which could well have other, undesireable, side effects?

[Chrisjl]

Mmmm, that last post went to the wrong thread......
Sorry for any confusion.

[Lissar]

[OMGWTFBBQ]

[Lissar]

I'm not arguing against that. I've been talking about the physical limitations of the body the whole time.

[Blink]

[goldragon_70]

My 2 cents and I'm not directly attacking anyone....yet anyways.

Studies do not always take into consideration, the few rare people. Most of the time they take averages.

Some of the dreamers on this site might actually get some of the more unrealistic files to work with major results. I'm not saying that one's going to really turn themselves into a house cat, but the probability does exists that major body change can happen.

Trying to discourage someone from there dream, like trying to discourage some one from playing the lottery, for the most part is not going to work. In general, we (human beings) like to dream, some more then others. Some of those that dream more then others, make those dreams come true too.

Science is just an organized version of observation, which is then conclusions from that are put into theory, and theory just that conclusion not been disproved....yet. Theories are being created and disproved quite often.

Besides, this site is somewhat majority driven, so if there is enough that believe in it, it just might make it as a file on the site.